Todd Merrill:

Hi, welcome to Tales from the SkyLounge. It’s a podcast about business, consulting, and venture investing. We get out there in the world, we talk to people who are making it happen, and we get their stories. If you could like and subscribe, it would make James, our producer, super happy. Today in the SkyLounge, Brantley Fry. Hi, Brantley. Welcome to SkyLounge.

Brantley Fry:

Hey, Todd. Thanks so much for having me. I’m glad to be here.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah. So, Brantley, I want you to tell us a little bit about yourself. Who are you, and what are you working on?

Brantley Fry:

Well, I am an attorney by training. I live in Birmingham, Alabama, and I am currently serving as a partner at TechCXO in our human capital management practice, where I help high-growth companies manage their people strategies, thinking about making people fuel and not friction. I think oftentimes people can be a headache, but it doesn’t have to be that way. And certainly, one of the companies’ biggest investments of capital is their personnel. And I love helping companies solve some of those problems and create strategies around adding some oomph to their people operations.

Todd Merrill:

Very cool. Well, we’ve got a lot of interesting things to talk about today, but I’d love to ask you about your law career. You have a law degree, and I saw that you were on the bar in Alabama as well as North Carolina. So, how did that happen?

Brantley Fry:

Yeah. So, it’s a funny story and kind of you’ll get a theme throughout my career, Todd, as we talk through this. But I am originally from Birmingham, Alabama. I grew up here, was born and raised. And when I graduated from high school, I shot out of here like a rocket with capital N-E-V-E-R, bright red letters flashing, never coming back. And so, when I finished law school, I got a license in North Carolina because that’s where my husband and I intended to move after living in Washington, DC. In Washington, you don’t necessarily have to be licensed in the district. Oftentimes, lawyers get licensed in other states and then waive into the district. And so, with our grand plan to move to the mountains of North Carolina after living in DC, I got licensed there and then life happened. And we had children, and my husband started his own business, and it made sense for many different reasons for us to move back home. He’s from here as well. Moved back home to Birmingham.

And so, while I’m licensed in North Carolina, I haven’t spent a lot of time practicing there. I actually took the Alabama bar when we moved back home and have not looked back. Birmingham has been such a wonderful place for us to raise a family and grow our business. And so, it was a good life lesson to learn never to say never, because this has been a great spot. And ironically, and we can talk about this later, but ironically, part of my career has been recruiting people to Birmingham since then. So, I’m kind of a convert in my own hometown.

Todd Merrill:

Wow. And it’s kind of rare for lawyers to come out of DC, right? That’s kind of like a really great place to be a lawyer.

Brantley Fry:

Yeah, it was. It was a great place. I actually worked as a federal contractor. I worked for a company called ICF Consulting. It’s now ICF International, and they’re a federal contractor. And I’ve specialized in environmental law and policy. And so, coming out of law school, I worked for them for about five and a half years and had the great fortune to work on a number of different projects, including environmental impact statements for the Department of Defense. I got to work with the Department of Transportation, EPA, obviously, the Department of Energy. We did a big project with the Department of Energy. And so, I cut my teeth early in my career on policy. And a lot of those projects involved stakeholder management. And I loved that. And we can talk about kind of how that evolved into what I’m doing now. But understanding how to connect people and policy has been a through line, you know, consistent throughout my career.

Todd Merrill:

So, is that more public policy or kind of the spooky side of the Defense Department, where you had to get cleared into stuff?

Brantley Fry:

I did have to get cleared into stuff, but it wasn’t spooky. I was doing environmental impact statements for then what we called and I’m really going to date myself here, but what was called Star Wars.

Todd Merrill:

Ah, yeah.

Brantley Fry:

So, this was the second Bush administration, Bush W., and they were looking at how to create a global program. So, it was a really interesting project that I got to work on, thinking about the global impacts of a defense system from an environmental perspective.

Todd Merrill:

And they’re talking about the Golden Dome now. So, all things are new again.

Brantley Fry:

That’s right. That’s right.

Todd Merrill:

So, interesting side note. So, I worked at SATCOM down in Florida during that era. So, I was in the lab with a lot of those folks that were working on the, you know, the smart BBs and all that stuff with Star Wars. So, blast from the past. It’s kind of fun.

Brantley Fry:

Absolutely

Todd Merrill:

Yeah. So, okay, so, you were a lawyer and you got out of the orbit of the gravity well of Washington, DC, went home, and then what? So, did you practice law for a little bit, or how did that work?

Brantley Fry:

So, I did. I worked as a consultant. And here’s another thing that you’ll hear throughout my career. I sometimes jokingly refer to my career path as the Forrest Gump career path. And I’ve been really lucky to be in the right place at the right time. Sometimes it feels like dumb luck. But one of my best friends is always careful to remind me that luck is where opportunity and preparation meet.

Todd Merrill:

Sure

Brantley Fry:

So, it’s a little bit of both. But long story short, I had moved back to Birmingham and worked remotely before remote work was really even a thing. I kept my job in DC and then got a call from a law firm in Alabama. They had a case that they had just recently filed after the TVA coal ash spill near Knoxville, Tennessee. And it was a really interesting event because their lead attorney who had filed the case was in the office on … I’m pulling dates out of my head, but just by way of example, he was in the office on Tuesday and wasn’t expected to make it out of the hospital on Wednesday. It was just this fluke blood infection. Thank goodness he survived. He’s doing great. All of those things. But in the interim, they were really scrambling, trying to find somebody to handle this case for them. And I had done a lot of Clean Water Act policy work. I had not done litigation at the time, but we thought that this was going to be a quick case, a quick settlement. You had over a billion with a B, gallons of coal ash that spilled into an impoundment in Tennessee. And I got to work on that case. It did not settle quickly for a number of reasons, primarily because TVA is a quasi-governmental agency. And as such, they have a level of immunity. I can go into more detail if you want.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah

Brantley Fry:

But long story short, what was going to be a six-month engagement working on this litigation turned into a five-and-a-half, close to six-year engagement. And part of the reason it turned into such a long engagement also is that the BP oil spill happened.

Todd Merrill:

Okay

Brantley Fry:

Shortly after the TVA coal ash spill. So, as an environmental lawyer, I was really fortunate to have gotten to work on the two largest environmental spills in U.S. history at the time. And I don’t think there’s been a larger one since then, thank goodness.

Todd Merrill:

Wow

Brantley Fry:

And so, from there, one of the things I loved about that work, and I was rare with some of my colleagues, in that I love working with clients. I love being the one to sit down and help my clients understand what was going on with the case, help them prepare for depositions, and really think about how they could be kept abreast on the status of the case. Because litigation is long and drawn out, and to the layperson, it often doesn’t make sense. And I loved being the connector for that and really serving my clients from a people perspective. And so, again, you’ll see kind of that theme starting to develop or really take shape throughout my career in terms of connecting people and policy.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah. And then so, TVA is DOE involved, I guess, is a polite way to say it, right? Did that come into, did your defense background come into play there? Or was that helpful in some way?

Brantley Fry:

It was certainly helpful having worked as a federal contractor to understand the labyrinth of federal regulations and how agencies work. That certainly was helpful in understanding kind of what TVA, how TVA functioned. And of course, again, they’re quasi-governmental. They’re somewhat private, but they’re also somewhat governmental. And the history of TVA is long and drawn out. It was part of the New Deal that Roosevelt had in creating economic development in the Southeast.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah

Brantley Fry:

And it’s a worthy organization, a worthy agency. They just had a really bad accident that happened and impacted a number of property owners. And I represented the property owners and the few businesses that were impacted along that impoundment. And I loved, like I said, I loved being the liaison between kind of the legal team and our clients. That was one of the things that I got most excited about doing.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah. And it’s surprising. It all comes down to people’s problems a lot of the time, right? So, it’s how well, you know, yes, you can grind through the legal technicalities of it, but it’s all keeping people comfortable, keeping them energized and in the loop and you know, keeping it going is a big part of all this, isn’t it?

Brantley Fry:

Absolutely

Todd Merrill:

So, you said environmental lawyer, and I thought, oh man, I wonder if she’s met RFK, you know, because didn’t he do a lot of the water quality litigation in upstate New York?

Brantley Fry:

I did. I have, and I have met him. Yes.

Todd Merrill:

Wow

Brantley Fry:

That was a long, long time ago. I did. I met him very briefly. It would have been in the kind of 2005, 2006 time. So, 20 years ago, again, I’m really dating myself. We don’t have to do math, but I did meet him very briefly.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah. It doesn’t seem like that long ago. So, for what that’s worth. So, these cases, man, what a great career-making set of cases back-to-back bookends, really fortunate at the fourth cup, you know, life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you’re going to get. Right?

Brantley Fry:

That’s right. That’s right.

Todd Merrill:

So, how did you get into the industry from there? You were young, well, now an experienced lawyer with a couple of really great projects under your belt. Then, how did your career take that next turn into corporate?

Brantley Fry:

Yeah. A couple of different factors came into play. One was that I was an environmental lawyer, and I had just worked on two of the largest spills in U.S. history. I didn’t have an appetite to work on a bigger spill than that. And so, given that I started thinking about what my next chapter looked like, and that coupled with the fact that I did not see myself as a desk lawyer, I think many people know those types of lawyers who really are a hundred percent committed to the practice of law, and they would not do anything but that. And they often have desks and continue to go into the office until the day they die. And I so much admire and respect that, but I realized pretty quickly that I wasn’t that. And that even though I loved practicing law, I’m so grateful that I have that background, it wasn’t necessarily something I wanted to do for the entirety of my career. And so, I did a deep dive into what that looked like.

I actually engaged an industrial psychologist here in town to do a career assessment. And that was probably some of the best money I have ever spent. They helped me really walk through what my strengths were, understand what my passions were. There was not a single thing, Todd, that they said to me that was earth-shattering or even, you know, new information. What it did for me was confirm some things and really solidify some things that I already knew, but hadn’t quite articulated. And so, with that, I think the biggest takeaway from that study and kind of the report that I got was that I’m a connector. I love connecting. And you’ve heard me say this already five or six times, but I love connecting people and policy. [00:12:44] And so, from there, I started looking for opportunities here in town and came across this startup. It’s called Chalker Group, and I served as the VP of business development for Chalker Group. I think I was hired number three or four. I don’t recall. I think I was hired number three, and a great leader and a very creative strategic business person, Barbara Burton, hired me, and she still is a great friend and a mentor to me. But she had this idea of finding ways to enhance recruiting to Birmingham. So, Birmingham, for better or worse, has a reputation of, you know, why, because even I, and, you know, I said this at the outset, why would anybody want to live here? And turns out there are a lot of really good reasons.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah

Brantley Fry:

And a lot of that recruiting people to Birmingham is breaking through that initial resistance of wait, why are we moving to Birmingham, Alabama? What does that community have to offer me? And so, Chalker is an incredibly supportive strategic recruiting company that connects candidates and their families to resources in Birmingham. It is a concierge, high-touch, highly individualized approach to recruiting. And I loved doing that. I saw, again, here’s people and policy.  So, UAB (University of Alabama) in Birmingham, is the largest employer in the state of Alabama. And they were Chalker’s and still are Chalker’s largest client. And so, I’ve had the opportunity to recruit some of the top doctors and researchers in the world. I mean, truly, UAB recruits people globally. For example, I had the amazing honor of helping recruit Dr. Jeanne Marrazzo and her significant other to Birmingham. And that name probably rings a bell, but if not, you certainly remember Jeanne from CNN during COVID.

Todd Merrill:

Ah!

Brantley Fry:

She was the woman with the amazing blue or red glasses frames and just a brilliant infectious disease researcher who is now, or was at USAI [NIAID], or U.S. … now I’m going to get the acronym wrong, but she took Dr. Fauci’s place after COVID.

Todd Merrill:

Okay

Brantley Fry:

And so that’s the type of caliber of researcher and doctor that I got to help recruit here to Birmingham. And it was such an honor to get to do that, to help build our community and really start helping people think about Birmingham differently.

Todd Merrill:

So, healthcare, you pulled into that healthcare orbit. And that’s so different from environmental law. DOD, it’s completely different, but it’s adjacent.

Brantley Fry:

It is, but it isn’t. It’s another highly regulated field. So, there’s a lot of overlap there, but also, I really see a close tie between environmental health and healthcare in general. If you think about health equity and some of the social determinants of health, the environment plays a big role in that. So, it was a really easy transition in my mind to switch from kind of working in the environmental scene over into the healthcare scene because there were so many corollaries between how people interact with the environment and how the environment impacts people’s health.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah. And then, so that got you from law to biz dev in a startup, right?

Brantley Fry:

Yeah

Todd Merrill:

So, it’s completely different. So that’s kind of fun.

Brantley Fry:

Completely different. Yeah.

Todd Merrill:

And then let me ask you a question. Let me pause there for a second before we go on. So, I got somebody talking about startups in the legal brain in a startup. Every startup has legal needs, right? You need a privacy policy, you need terms and conditions, you need all kinds of contracts, you have corporate structuring, and the list goes on and on and on. Why don’t more startups have a chief legal officer? Everybody knows you need a sales personality, you need a marketing personality, you need a technical personality if you’re in tech or product. Why don’t we all reach for that legal card? Where do you think it kind of goes unnoticed? You think there’s space for like a … I don’t know, a general counsel or something?

Brantley Fry:

I do think there’s space for it. I definitely think there’s space for it. It doesn’t necessarily require a full-time general counsel. I think there are opportunities to have a chief legal officer who can help risk spot and help serve as the liaison between the company and the business leadership team and outside counsel. And the reason I think having outside counsel is so important for startups is because you’re often dealing with specialized issues. So, I’ll use help tech, for example. If you have something that relates to HIPAA, you really need somebody who is very well-versed in HIPAA. And so, I think having outside counsel is an important tool in the toolbox so that you can have specialized engagement and specialized advice. That being said, having somebody internally that is either serving as a general counsel or as a chief legal officer and really kind of running interference between the business operations and the outside counsel, I think, is incredibly valuable. It’s invaluable for cost savings. And one of the things… just skipping ahead a little bit, I also had the opportunity to serve as general counsel and chief of staff for a startup here in Birmingham that has since exited. It’s called Pack Health.

Todd Merrill:

Okay

Brantley Fry:

And in that role, my primary objective was really making sure that our outside counsel was well-informed, that they had the information that they needed on a timely basis. I also could serve as a kind of gatekeeper of sorts in the sense that something definitely rises to the need of having outside counsel. And other things don’t necessarily require that, and can say, okay, look, your resources are better spent. Your risk is X. And you could manage to zero risk, although I think that’s impossible to do. But here’s your risk profile. And based on what your risk tolerance is, here’s what you may want to engage outside counsel, or you may want to hold off. And so, I think having somebody with a law degree to look at some of those elements is really important, especially for a startup. So, even though I’m not formally practicing law, I’m a huge proponent of having good counsel early. You do not want to wait until there’s a problem because, oftentimes, having good counsel is about avoiding litigation or avoiding problems. And so, the earlier you can engage somebody with that specialized experience, the better.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah. Well, so, you mentioned your next startup. Was that directly your next one, or how did you get out of the recruiting business, you know, in biz dev into?

Brantley Fry:

Yeah. So, I was actually recruited out of Chalker Group. I will never forget. I was sitting at my desk one afternoon, and I got a call from the then-transition manager. He had been the campaign manager for newly elected Senator Doug Jones. He was a U.S. Senator elected here in Alabama during a special election. And the campaign manager and I had worked together, actually, on a volunteer board here in town. So, we knew each other. And I had volunteered on a very, I mean, just nothing paid. It was really just I saw a potential and a really strong candidate and a good person who was entering the arena. And so, I had volunteered for Doug’s campaign, but I wasn’t a paid staffer. But long story short, I got a call one afternoon, asking if I’d be interested in looking at the state director position that was open and they were filling to run the state operations for Senator Jones.

Todd Merrill:

Oh, wow!

Brantley Fry:

I was thrilled to get that call. I never expected it. It was a surprise. But one of the things I loved about it and what I was so appreciative to get that call is that they were very intentional in looking for somebody who wasn’t steeped in Alabama politics. They did not want an old-school political operative. They wanted somebody with a fresh perspective. I think that my ability to connect people and policy, again, not to sound like a broken record, really lent itself for me to be well-placed and well-suited for that role. And so, I got to spend the next three years of my career working as state director for a U.S. Senator. And so that involved representing the Senator any time he was not available in the state, and there was an event where a stakeholder wanted him. I got to serve in that role and my team, our state team, got to serve in that role. And so, I managed six offices here throughout the state and about 25 staffers. And I’m really, really proud of the fact, and I think this speaks to the Senator’s leadership, too, but I’m really, really proud of the fact that we got accolades all over the state, didn’t matter which party, because we were so responsive.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah

Brantley Fry:

We made it a point to be responsive. And it was the first time, not to sound partisan or anything like this, but it was the first time there had been a Democrat in the U.S. Senate seat in about a generation. And so we felt very obliged to make sure that people who maybe didn’t have a voice from a Democratic standpoint that they were heard, but also that we were making sure that every constituent was heard across the state. So, it didn’t matter to us what political party. And we often got surprises when we would show up at places where people thought maybe a Democrat wouldn’t show up. And we did because we thought it was so important to bridge those divides. And I’m really proud of the accolades that the office got. And again, that’s such a testament to Senator Jones’ leadership, too. He’s moderate. He got awards from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. Not many Democrats get those types of awards. But I think it was a great opportunity for me to learn about our state and all that we have to offer, but also, to continue to hone those people and policy skills that I so love.

Todd Merrill:

Again, it’s all about people, right? If you treat people right, a lot of good things happen. And you said just showing up, that’s just almost stupid advice, right? But showing up is 90% of the problem.

Brantley Fry:

That’s right.

Todd Merrill:

But it really is, right?

Brantley Fry:

It’s fundamental.

Todd Merrill:

Blocking and tackling, show up, talk to people, listen to them, and treat them like humans. It’s amazing.

Brantley Fry:

Yeah. Understanding that we have so much in common. I mean, I think if you listen to the media, we’re all so divided. And it definitely feels that way. I mean, I’m not denying that it doesn’t feel that way. But when you really talk to people on the ground, you realize we’re, I would say, people agree on 90% of policy issues. It’s really around the edges. And of course, that’s what, for better or worse, that’s what the media picks up on. And I do think that there’s a great opportunity for us to kind of, as you said, Todd, see each other as people, not as partisans, and really think about how we can solve problems rather than throw barbs at each other.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah. So, is he still a senator right now?

Brantley Fry:

He is not, no. He lost in re-election, unfortunately. But he has been very active. He continues to be to that day, and he practices law as well.

Todd Merrill:

Okay

Brantley Fry:

It was a great opportunity for me. I loved that work, and I loved getting to know people across the state. And one of the things kind of going back to the connector role, there are so many cool things happening across Alabama, and really, I’m sure this is true in every state, where you have packets of innovation and packets of solutions, and one part of the state doesn’t realize that they have a counterpart in another part of the state, that there’s great opportunity for collaboration and opportunity for kind of a synergy to grow business. And that was really fun, kind of connecting those dots to businesses across the state. I loved doing that.

Todd Merrill:

You get that macro view because you have to, and then you go, oh, you should meet them.

Brantley Fry:

Absolutely. That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right.

Todd Merrill:

That’s cool.

Brantley Fry:

It was a lot of fun.

Todd Merrill:

When you have just a little, the ability just to connect two little things, and it’s so easy for you, but you’re just in a unique position. But it’s so important to do that, right? How many times do you see that kind of opportunity go by where you go, oh man, I can’t let this go by, for the two people involved, it’s such a big deal?

Brantley Fry:

Absolutely. And it’s funny because we all have this, you don’t know what you don’t know, and until you have somebody kind of making those connections for you, it’s hard to do. And of course, technology makes that easier now, but even still, I think, and this is true in the startup scene, but really any business, people are so focused on what’s in front of them that they often don’t have the time or the ability to look up and see the broader landscape, like you were talking about, having that bird’s eye view. And so, to be able to play that connector role is really exciting.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah. Go back for a second. You said what brought you into politics is this mutual board that you were on for a volunteer organization. Do you want to name that organization? It’s always fun to see what people volunteer for.

Brantley Fry:

Yeah, happy to. Absolutely. We served on the board for the Altamont School. It is an independent school here in town. I am an alum. My husband and I are both alums of the Altamont School, and our children are now alums. And his wife and his children are also alums.

Todd Merrill:

Wow!

Brantley Fry:

Unfortunately, he’s now deceased, but still making an impact throughout the state in some of the projects he put into place. And certainly, I was a beneficiary of his leadership as well. Talking about the campaign manager.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It’s fun what people volunteer for. There are a lot of really great causes. It’s kind of an overlooked thing. It’s great to give back to the community. I feel like when you’re successful, it’s kind of a responsibility to plow that back in. And that’s good. But you always get more than you give in those situations, which is a great thing. It sounds like you benefited greatly.

Brantley Fry:

I did.

Todd Merrill:

So, after politics, I don’t know if there’s ever such a thing as after politics, you’re kind of in, right?

Brantley Fry:

You are in. You are in. But they’re different forms, right? It takes different forms. So, I continue to be highly involved in my community. And that’s such a huge part of who I am. So, I love that you picked up on that. So, thank you. So, after politics, I went back into the startup sector. And I worked as general counsel and chief of staff for Pack Health, which is a health tech startup here in town that has since exited. I was at Pack Health for about a year. When I first signed on to Pack Health, I knew that exit was on the horizon. I didn’t know that it was within 12 months, which was incredibly exciting.

Todd Merrill:

Wow!

Brantley Fry:

So, Pack was acquired by Quest Diagnostics in a huge exit. And I got to help with diligence through that process as I was serving as general counsel and really worked with the leadership team to do some blocking and tackling on the chief of staff side of things, in addition to the general counsel piece, as you think about preparing for an exit and how you communicate that. And some of the pieces that you have in place as an organization, from a culture standpoint, from a hiring standpoint, all of those nuts and bolts that you have to consider as you’re preparing for acquisition. And that was a lot of fun being in that role. Again, I didn’t expect to have that happen so quickly, but was thrilled to play even a small role in that acquisition. And the company is doing well. And it was a great success story for Birmingham to have that exit into a kind of public company like Quest.

Todd Merrill:

Wow. And I love these stories, right? So, I’m going to kind of pick your brain here. Just tell me the story. Like, where were you when you heard, okay, we’re getting… there’s somebody that might want to buy us. What was that moment like when you were… what were you doing?

Brantley Fry:

Yeah. So, we had a few of those. I mean, candidly, we had a few of those moments. Pack was really hot. And the reason being is they had the contract with Wegovy. They had the Novo Nordisk contract. So, if you think about what was happening in 2021, this is coming out of COVID. And the new drugs are coming on market. They were helping serve patients. We called them members through a health coaching platform as they were coming onto the new drugs like Wegovy. And so, we had a number of suitors, which was really interesting. But ultimately, when Quest came through, it was incredibly exciting to be able to work with that team and see what they brought to the table from a national standpoint in elevating Pack Health’s services throughout the country. And we had already had some national contracts. We weren’t limited to contracts in Alabama. In fact, a lot of our contracts were elsewhere. But that was really fun to see kind of our community take on a national significance in that acquisition.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah. Well, so, like very personally, right? So, a lot of people don’t have that experience, right?

 And it’s kind of a magical thing, but then it’s also, like a death march grind toward the end sometimes. But like kind of walk us through that? It’s just fun, right? So, it sounds like at a board level, I guess you attended board meetings as chief of staff. And is it executive or is it board-level thing? And surely, it’s not. This is kind of like not generally known for many.

Brantley Fry:

No, it wasn’t. It wasn’t generally known. And I think that’s one of the biggest challenges that leadership teams face through acquisition, as there’s so much you cannot talk about because you risk, you know, kind of throwing a monkey wrench in the deal. And so, how do you manage communications in a way that still feels authentic, still honors the corporate values that you hold so dearly as a founding team or as a leadership team? And so walking through that was really interesting and trying to make sure that we were being as transparent as possible without giving up too much information because you’re balancing …I felt like one of the biggest challenges was balancing, you know, it’s clear that something was going on, right? The leadership team was having a lot more meetings than they normally had, right? I mean, people, people pick up on that. I mean, as a leadership team, you would be, you know, kind of blind if you didn’t recognize that your team sees something is going on. They may not know exactly what, but they see something. And so, how do you create space to say, okay, yeah, there is something going on. You know, we’re moving some things forward, and it’s going to come to you soon without saying exactly what’s happening. So, you don’t want people to be fearful of losing their jobs with a big change like that. You don’t want people kind of interjecting themselves in ways that doesn’t make sense for the deal. There’s lots to balance and I always try to err on the side of transparency, but, you know, from a legal standpoint and just from an M&A standpoint, there are so many things that have to be managed. And I always talk about being transparent on the process, not necessarily transparent on the people or the players, but being transparent on the process as much as you can so that people have some level of expectation, but don’t necessarily have all of the, you know, the nitty gritty details because those things have to be kept confidential for some time through the M&A process. And so, like so, many things in business, it truly is a balancing act.

Todd Merrill:

So, talk about like, you know, anytime there’s an M&A or a, you know, transaction, you go from our culture, you know, that you’ve cultivated, and it’s a product of those involved, right, in an agreed upon set of principles. And then, you know, you hope there’s a culture match, but however careful you are, there’s always a differential going into that new environment. You know, they never truly just leave you alone, right?

Brantley Fry:

Right

Todd Merrill:

___But, you know, there’s always some kind of level of friction and adjustment. Sometimes it’s good, sometimes it’s bad, probably a combination of both, you know. So, how do you manage that, or what was that like culturally, you know, for your team, do you think? And then how do you, as an HR or chief of staff, you know, smooth that over and then help them, you know, shift the gear?

Brantley Fry:

Yeah. And again, I think transparent communication is so critically important. So, one of the things that I often talk about with clients is how communicating something over and over, it feels like you, as the leader, are being repetitive, you’re bored of talking about it. But I always assure people, your team is not bored of hearing it. They are still processing it. You’ve been looking at for a longer period of time and in much more detail than they have. So, the more you can communicate, it will feel like you’re a broken record. It will feel like you have said this until you’re blue in the face. I mean, all of those metaphors and things that people feel like when they’re over-communicating, but it is so critically important to make sure that people are kept abreast of what’s going on to the extent that you can share. And again, I like leaning into the process, not necessarily the people and players. And so, the more you’re communicating the process and keeping expectations clear, the better. And I think there is a tendency, all of us as leaders, to say, well, I already told them that. You know, I’ve told them that 10 times. Why don’t they understand it? Well, it’s because they’re not looking at it as closely as you are. It’s not that they’re slow or dense or don’t want to know. It’s that change takes time and communication, people need to … I mean, there’s so much data that shows how people absorb information, people absorb it differently, but they need to hear it in a bunch of different ways, a bunch of different times. 

So, I think that’s one critical component about the overall approach to M&A, is just being clear on communications. But then the other piece, you’re asking about culture and having a clear understanding, and you said it so well. I mean, the ideal is that the culture is aligned between the acquiring organization and the selling organization. That’s not always the case. And even if it is aligned, there’s still going to be some nuances. And so, how do you manage those nuances? And I think having opportunities for people to ask questions is critically important. We had a number of Q&A sessions with our teams so that they could ask questions and understand what the acquisition was going to be for them. And so that was incredibly important.

Todd Merrill:

Talking about the culture shift, when you go from our little company to the big company, and then you hope it’s aligned, and you’re talking about how that’s important, and it’s not always directly aligned. So, how do you help people through that? And then what’s the important thing to look at as an executive leader in that situation?

Brantley Fry:

So, some of the strategies that we implemented, and it came from both the acquiring company and the selling company, are to hold listening sessions and Q&A sessions with different teams of employees. And so, providing space for employees to ask questions and understand what the merger looks like for them. I mean, if you think about change management in any context, the main question you always want to answer is, what’s in it for me? And that sounds cynical. I don’t mean for it to sound cynical. But people really do need to understand, okay, how is this going to affect me? What does this do to my day-to-day job responsibilities? Who am I going to be working with? How much is this going to change my daily life as a professional in this company? And so, the more opportunities you can give to people to understand that and ask questions, the better. And then also, making sure that you kind of have a reset on culture. So, thinking about it, and I’m always a little bit tentative about having kind of a leadership retreat where you come back and you announce values and that sort of thing. But I do think it’s incredibly important to, and one of the strategies I actually implemented in another role that I had is asking employees how they see the values. So, this was when I was at Southern Research here in Birmingham, and we asked every employee across the company, we had about 250 employees, how they thought of the value statement. So, rather than having a leadership retreat where the leaders come back and make this big pronunciation, we have these new values, and here they are, and now you have to operate this way. We did the reverse, and we said, okay, we already have this value statement. Does it resonate with you? If so, how? Do you even know what the values are? I mean, we have them on the wall, but has anybody ever looked at them? Or do you make decisions through that lens? All of those things.

And so, we asked people, and we were very upfront about getting their opinions on, one, is this the right value statement for who we are as a company right now? And if not, how do we need to adjust that? And so, we did a series of exercises around values that were very much employee-driven rather than leadership team-driven. And I think also that the same strategy applies in an M&A scenario, where you can kind of do a reset and say, all right, here’s the now merged company. Here are the two sets of values to the extent that they line up one for one. Fabulous. Chances are they don’t, but there are probably, you know, some similarities. But can you do a crosswalk between the values and understand kind of from the acquisition standpoint, do the new values resonate with people? And if so, why? If not, why not? And then kind of to the extent that you have an opportunity to make some adjustments, I think that’s important. But including employees, and that takes time. I mean, it is not a quick exercise, but it does give people some agency around that. And it also ensures that people have a common understanding of what the values are so that you can really dive into that from a culture perspective.

I recently ran across this quotation from Andy Grove, who of course, was one of the co-founders of Intel. I don’t know if you all know who he is, but he talks about culture isn’t about creating pleasant office vibes, it’s about building a corporate immune system. And I love that because I think sometimes people think about culture as being squishy and, you know, something that’s hard to measure, all of those things, but it’s not about just being squishy. It truly is about creating an organization that can withstand hardship. And if you think about it as an immune system, I love that. I think it’s such a great analogy.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah. I was just thinking about, you know, the times I’ve been involved with M&As, and it’s like if the message is consistent and you hear it a bunch of times, you’re kind of numb and you forget about it. And, you know, if you keep hearing the same thing again and again and again, it’s kind of like, oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. This is credible. And this is just going to be what’s going to happen, right?

Brantley Fry:

Yeah

Todd Merrill:

And then, you know, sometimes, more information gives you, it’s kind of like floating a goldfish, right? You give them a second to kind of acclimate to it. And then you decide, oh, you know, this is actually pretty good for everybody. You know, and then the more I get, you know, clear, consistent communication, I guess, is the bottom line, right? You’ve got to tell people what’s going on. You can’t tell them everything, but you’ve got to tell them the relevant parts that are going to make a difference.

Brantley Fry:

That’s right.

Todd Merrill:

Did that company have, you know, what was the wealth effect like for that company? Were there a couple of people at the top who did really well? Was there an investor? You know, did everybody kind of share in that wealth effect?

Brantley Fry:

So, there were some founding team members that I think did well, and the investors also did well. I mean, I think it was overall a very positive experience for people. You know, tenure obviously comes into play in something like that. And what the employment agreements say is really important in terms of, and that kind of comes into some of the work that I’m doing now, is helping people structure employment agreements and structure their hiring so that they are attractive to highly skilled people that they want on the team but aren’t necessarily giving away the farm, so, to speak, in terms of equity. So, how do you create really strong agreements where people feel like they have some skin in the game and that they’re invested in growing and scaling the company for exit, but don’t necessarily have, you know, a dilutive effect as well. So that’s a really important consideration early on as you hire your teams coming into the organization.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah, and I’ve seen super messy cap tables. It gets really ugly.

Brantley Fry:

That’s right.

Todd Merrill:

And it kind of is a problem at some point. What are the things you’re seeing out there in the world with employment agreements, I guess, from an employer perspective? You know, I’ve seen some companies that are saying, you know, we’re not going to give you stock. We’re going to give you like a long-term bonus plan, cash money if we hit our objectives, which is, you know, you talk in terms of like, was it car, house, lifestyle exits, you know, somewhere between, you know, like a really nice car kind of bonus seems way more real than having to wait 10 years for your little startup to maybe sort of kind of exit and then, you know, who knows, right?

Brantley Fry:

That’s right.

Todd Merrill:

Cash money seems to go a long way. Are you seeing that kind of trend? Are we still kind of in the stock options is, you know, for everybody kind of phase, you know, or something?

Brantley Fry:

I think there’s a combination. I do. And I think it just depends on kind of the founding team and what their overall objectives are in terms of the pace of scale and how they want to compensate their team. So, it varies by founder and founding team. I haven’t seen kind of a one-size-fits-all approach that I would recommend anyway. I think that if you’ve got a top player that you want to go after, and for some reason that this is the way you get them, then I think you need to make real concessions for, you know, and it’s like what I was talking about earlier, you know, it’s not dissimilar for risk tolerance, right? How much are you willing to put into getting exactly the right person for the role? And some of that comes very organically. It’s interesting to see that. And then other times it is, no, we want this person and we’re going after them and we’re going to throw everything at it.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah, yeah.

Brantley Fry:

So, all of that said, I haven’t seen a one-size-fits-all approach to the employment agreements. I think it just depends on the leadership team. And it also often depends on, as you said, the existing cap table and what the investors are showing in terms of how much the leadership team has leeway to recruit that way.

Todd Merrill:

So, you’ve got a kind of a background in recruiting, and then you’ve got a background kind of in this employment agreement stuff. Are you seeing, and you’ve just mentioned, you know, there are certain people who are just the right person at the right time for that role. How much of that happens in an outbound nature versus, you know, get a job description together, run it by legal, post it up on the usual suspects, get a bazillion AI-generated resumes? How much of it, probably at the senior level, is that headhunting, sniping, like, you know who’d be great for this, you know, make a call?

Brantley Fry:

Yeah, and I think this is the connections and relationships piece, right? But I always kind of make sure that my clients understand that that is not the only way.

Todd Merrill:

Sure

Brantley Fry:

And I think that if you’re purely relying on your internal and external connections, oftentimes you’re going to miss really strong non-traditional candidates. I’m biased here because I’ve never been a traditional candidate in any role I’ve had. So, I have this bias that I have to recognize. But I do think that there’s great value in at least exploring a combination of traditional and non-traditional candidates. One of the things about non-traditional candidates, and you can define that any way you want. I mean, some people might define it as diversity, equity, and inclusion. Some people might define it as having somebody who isn’t, you know, somebody, let’s use myself as an example. I’m a lawyer, but I’m working in HR. You know, just a different skill set that they bring to the table. So, there are many different ways to look and define a non-traditional candidate. The way I think about it is, do you have somebody who’s in your candidate pool who brings a perspective to your team that you don’t already have, or that brings a perspective to this position that is different from what you’ve had previously, and that kind of takes you to the next level? And I love that from a non-traditional standpoint. I think about it, you know, if you’ve got a subject matter expert, and they’re used to looking at something, I use this example all the time, if they’re used to looking at something this close up, they often can’t see around the corners. Whereas a non-traditional candidate can have the ability to look at things from a different perspective and say, okay, I know just enough about this subject to know the right questions to ask and really push people in a new direction, which I think is beneficial to the company.

So that’s a really, Todd, that’s a really long way of saying, you know, there are different ways to cut through the noise in hiring. I think relationships are a big key to that. I think that there are some really exciting things that are happening in AI in terms of how we’re getting candidates and how we can process applications. But the most important thing that I tell clients is to start with, and this goes back to kind of the job description piece, start with what is the problem that you’re trying to solve, right? Don’t just say, okay, there’s something nebulous in HR that I’m trying to fix. I’m not sure exactly what it is. I’m just going to hire an HR generalist. That might work, but I think it’s really important and often pays dividends in time if you can take a second to think about what is the business problem that you’re trying to solve and what type of candidate can help you solve that problem the best. And so, if you take 10 steps back to have a really strong understanding of what you’re trying to hire, it makes the process so much easier.

Todd Merrill:

I want to go kind of maybe a little bit of a different direction.

Brantley Fry:

Sure

Todd Merrill:

You mentioned, you know, so, we had UAB, Birmingham is a great medical hub, right? And some really, really great doctors and dentists came out of there. And then, you know, your company did obviously very well. So, there’s a little bit of wealth effect, you know, are you seeing like a little hub of health tech or healthcare-related initiatives in that area?

Brantley Fry:

Yes. Absolutely.

Todd Merrill:

You want to talk about that?

Brantley Fry:

Yeah, happy to. So, it’s kind of a mixed story right now. There’s a little bit of uncertainty. Certainly, that’s not unique to Birmingham, but last year, Birmingham was designated as a tech hub, as a biotech hub by the Economic Development Agency, which, of course, is a federal agency. And that happened probably in the spring of last year. And then in December of 24, the city was awarded about a $40 million grant to create a biotech hub. And that funding was to support recruiting. It was to support an ecosystem development and some kind of … we have a company here called CATALYST that helps increase access to clinical trials. Birmingham and UAB are one of the top clinical trial sites in the country.

Todd Merrill:

Okay

Brantley Fry:

And so, how do you create access to those clinical trials? So that grant was a huge win for our community. Unfortunately, with some of the cuts at the federal level with the new administration, that funding is not coming to Birmingham, at least at this time. And so, the community right now is really regrouping on how to continue the work. I mean, the work goes on, but how does it happen in a way that doesn’t have this massive federal infusion of capital? And so, it’s a great trend here. I mean, UAB is one of the top research institutes in the country and has a number of centers of excellence, where we have a national cancer institute here. And so, there’s a lot of infrastructure that’s already here. And like I said, the work will continue. And through that, there are a number of health tech spinoffs in the ecosystem and really strong support throughout the community to continue to bolster those businesses and continue their growth. So, it’s a mixed bag right now. Hopefully, we’ll see some positive turnarounds as things settle out a little bit with the federal funding. But right now, it’s definitely a challenge. There’s no question.

Todd Merrill:

Yeah. I think everybody is going through that. I don’t think it’s just Birmingham. There’s a lot of uncertainty in the federal contracts right now. A lot of people are bailing. But a lot of people are going, well, it’s kind of what I do. So, I can’t just leave the sector.

Brantley Fry:

Yeah

Todd Merrill:

So, I think it will all settle out. We can’t just rip all these programs down to nothing and expect it to go well. So, who knows? Maybe we’ll get through this whole waste, fraud, and abuse cycle, which is probably good to root out some of that stuff and then get back to the healthy economic development kind of stuff.

Brantley Fry:

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think one of the things that you and I do in terms of offering fractional services, in uncertain times, it allows companies to flex into having the expertise they need when they need it without necessarily making a full-time hire. So, I think there are some real advantages to this fractional executive model anytime, but especially in uncertain times because of the ability for companies to flex rather than hiring full-time.

Todd Merrill:

Well, we talk about no mulligans right now in the market. So, you really can’t afford to make bad decisions, particularly at a strategic level. So, it’s nice to be able to have somebody on the phone that’s a connector.

Brantley Fry:

Yeah

Todd Merrill:

You can get a quick answer that you can have confidence in to make critical decisions. I guess that’s part of the fractional model, right? You get access to a way better brain than you can afford for a part of the time.

Brantley Fry:

That’s right.

Todd Merrill:

And that works out for everybody. Yeah. I’m a big fan. I think so. So, is politics in your future? Are you going to run for something at some point in life? Did you get the bug hard?

Brantley Fry:

I didn’t get the bug in order to run, but I certainly support really strong candidates. And one of the things that I think all of us can agree on is that we need more good people in politics, and that’s a tough pill to swallow. I mean, candidly, who in their right mind would want to go into politics?

Todd Merrill:

Yeah

Brantley Fry:

It seems dirty, and especially now that it seems that we are so, so, heavily divided. But I firmly believe that one of the solutions to that is having solid people run for office. And so I am incredibly supportive of strong candidates who want to get into public service for public service’s sake, not for ego’s sake. And of course, you have to have some level of ego to get into politics. There’s no question. But what is it that’s driving someone to run for office? And we need more people who really have kind of a servant heart to take on some of these challenges because I think that, and I was saying this earlier, thinking about traveling across the state of Alabama, you know, the vast majority of people agree on the vast majority of things. And so, can we find candidates who can really speak to people in ways that can draw those connections and say, you know what, let’s not worry so much about what’s going on on the fringes. Let’s figure out which problems affect the most people and really put some solutions in place to solve those. So that sounds like Pollyanna. I, you know, I have to acknowledge that, but I am hopeful that we can find good people to run.

Todd Merrill:

No, I think that’s right. I think the world is always better when you have clean-hearted people, you know, trying to serve with a servant’s heart, making decisions. You know, unfortunately, it takes a lot of money to run. And there’s a lot of incentive, bad and good to run. You know, people are attracted to power and money and all that stuff. And it attracts, you know, the worst among us in a lot of cases. So, it’s hard to fight against that. I don’t know. So, hopefully it will all work itself out and, you know, we’ll get some good leaders up there and make some good decisions.

Well, Brantley, it’s all about travel and getting out there in the world. And I know you’ve done a lot of that. You got any great travel stories you want to share with us?

Brantley Fry:

Yeah, I’d be happy to. So, I had the opportunity last fall to walk the Camino de Santiago in Spain.

Todd Merrill:

Oh, yeah.

Brantley Fry:

And for those who aren’t familiar, it is a pilgrimage. And there are a number of different routes. I happen to choose the French route, which is the most commonly traveled. And it’s about 500 miles from the French border across the Pyrenees into Spain and then across northern Spain to Compostela de Santiago. And it was easily one of the most transformative experiences I’ve ever had. I averaged about, it took me 38 days total. Three of those were rest days, 35 walking days. And I averaged about 13 miles or so each day. And I met people from all over the world, Todd. It was incredible to see people from every corner of the globe who had taken on this challenge to walk across Spain. And there were so many wonderful takeaways. Probably one of the biggest takeaways I had was that there are infinite ways to walk the Camino, and using the Camino as a metaphor for life. There are infinite ways to do life and find what speaks to you and what inspires you, what your purpose is. I love Simon Sinek and Start With Why to really think through what is your why and how are you applying that. So, it was a huge adventure. I did it by myself, which was interesting. But like I said, I met people from all over the world. And there was not a time, well, I can tell you one story where I didn’t feel super safe, but it was more in my imagination than anything. But for the most part, it was an incredibly safe experience and I learned a ton every single day. I’m still learning from that experience.

Todd Merrill:

You keep up with people from that experience?

Brantley Fry:

I do. Yes, I do. In fact, there are about six of us who stay in touch. And we were trying to coordinate a call last week over about five time zones, I believe. And so, one of my friends in Australia, he does IT in Australia, he had created a spreadsheet for each of the time zones and trying to find… it was like an international doodle poll. That’s crazy. But yeah, we do keep in touch. And I’m really fortunate to have made those friendships. And I learned so much from those folks.

Todd Merrill:

Wow!

Brantley Fry:

The other thing that was really cool is there were some people that I walked with, that I met the first night I was on the Camino, and kept in touch with and still keep in touch with to this day. And then there were others who made almost equally profound impacts on my experience that I may have run across for an hour or two on the walk. And we just happened to have an amazing conversation. So, yeah, if anybody’s ever interested in learning more about the Camino, I love talking about it. And I could spend another hour talking about that. So, you’ve opened the can of worms, Todd.

Todd Merrill:

So, if anybody wants to ask you about the Camino or any of this other stuff after this, what’s a great way to get in touch with you?

Brantley Fry:

Yeah, you can get in touch with me. My TechCXO email is brantley.fry@techCXO.com, or I’m also on LinkedIn, just Brantley Fry. And I’m happy to connect. I love connecting people and policy, as I’ve said over and over again, and would love to collaborate with folks who have similar interests and needs.

Todd Merrill:

Wow. Well, thanks for coming to SkyLounge. It’s been fun having you.

Brantley Fry:

Likewise. Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a really good time. I appreciate it.

Todd Merrill:

Bye for now.

Brantley Fry:

Bye